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Scotland seeks second referendum on independence

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Scotland’s first minister Nicola Sturgeon says she will ask for permission to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence.

The BBC reports Sturgeon says the timing of another vote will be the Scottish Parliament to decide, with Sturgeon’s preferred timing for the referendum to be between autumn in 2018 and spring 2019.

She plans to ask the Scottish Parliament next week for permission to request a section 30 order from Westminster, which would grant the power for a legally binding referendum.

Speaking in Edinburgh today, Sturgeon says Scotland is at a “hugely important crossroads”.

She says: “I will take the steps necessary now to make sure that Scotland will have a choice at the end of this process.

“A choice of whether to follow the UK to a hard Brexit, or to become an independent country able to secure a real partnership of equals with the rest of the UK and our own relationship with Europe.”

Sturgeon adds: “The Scottish government’s mandate for offering this choice is beyond doubt.

“So next week I will seek the approval of the Scottish Parliament to open discussions with the UK government on the details of a Section 30 order – the procedure that will enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate for an independence referendum.”

In the EU referendum last year, Scotland voted 62 per cent in favour of remaining in the EU. In its original vote on independence in 2014, 55 per cent of Scottish voters opted against independence.

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Comments

There are 29 comments at the moment, we would love to hear your opinion too.

  1. Perhaps T May should “do a Trump” and insist Scotland rebuilds Hadrian’s Wall and pays in full if Nicola Sturgeon wants full independence. 🙂

  2. I’m expecting a big YES this time round. Then there’s Ireland to think about, a reunited Ireland. All this could have been avoided.

    • The Scots always vote with their wallets/purses and so Scotland will not leave the UK, as it will condemn them to penury as well as European bureaucracy. Most Scots with half an education will recognise the opportunities of being outside the EU and part of a prosperous and progressive UK. She is playing to the militant rabble. It will be her destruction and hopefully kill off the SNP as a political force.

  3. Let them go. Then they will replace Greece as the poor man of Europe and the rest of the UK will save a fortune on the £1500 per Scot subsidy we pay under the Barnett formula.

  4. Christine Brightwell 13th March 2017 at 1:13 pm

    Ireland will be more tricky than Scotland

  5. Neil F Liversidge 13th March 2017 at 1:15 pm

    This is designed, of course, to encourage the EU to play the hardest of hardballs in the Brexit negotiations in the hope that the British government will bottle out and stay in the EU. We need to call their bluff – Scotland and the EU. This time no English politician should campaign against Scottish independence. If Scotland wants to go, let it go, but let it be complete and total independence with its own currency which presumably, if it gets into the EU, will need to be the Euro.

  6. All fake news – in fact, Scotland doesn’t actually exist.
    The Scots would be bonkers to leave the UK.

  7. You did mean the SNP is calling for a referendum. Scotland is not calling for one. There was no Scottish vote to leave the EU, it was a UK vote. Stop writing an SNP script

  8. A nice place to relocate to for Financial Services.

  9. Yip, let us go! When 70% GDP from FS is understood as ridiculous we can focus on establishing an economy based on production and skills exportation instead; and we are way ahead of the rest of the UK in that sense. The lack of investment in Scotland has been laughable and I would be happy to leave the pound currency as associated with an impossible debt; which in creation did not benefit Scotland with any proportionality in the first place. We will look after levelling education, our sick and old and Theresa May can continue bombing and bullying. As a Scotsman I want nothing to do with nuclear risk or financial waste. UK foreign policy has become a disgrace and so far from what my friends and family wish to be represented by. Despite a whitewash in the general election the SNP, or Scotland, is still unrepresented or even heard. Tax abusers, scammers and bull shitters still get applauded in the commons with no movement towards any moral tax system or social justice. Frankly my question is what sane Scotsman would wish to remain?

  10. When Sturgeon hits the headlines, you know its a bad news day. What really makes me laugh around this sound bite of hers is she assumes she will still be around then.

  11. Scotland the Brave

  12. To Steve Balmer
    On the contrary, Scotland has been very well-represented at Westminster across all parties over the years and the SNP are no different to any other political party. First example, one of their front benchers was forced to resign in 2015 over allegations of possible mortgage fraud regarding a series of morally questionable property deals. I do agree about the scammers etc but there are represented across every nationality and culture! Second example is the monumental waste of money and effort in building the tram line (not system) in Edinburgh – a vanity project if there ever was one. They should have got one with the new road bridge over the Forth; if it had been then the pre-Christmas chaos when the existing bridge was closed would not have happened. Through marriage I have plenty of Scottish family in Edinburgh and Fife and I can assure that they are vehemently opposes to the SNP and their single policy. The UK voting system meant that, as with all general elections, anomalies can skew the number of MPs per vote and that is what happened in Scotland as 90% of the voting electorate did not vote for the SNP (53 MPs out of 59 = 90%). Perhaps to get a sense of perspective you should try to listen to quieter, saner voices, like those of Ruth Davison or Kezia Dugdale as to how Scotland is likely to fare, if they ever are accepted into the EU (Spain may use their veto because of their problems with Catalonia). As an Englishman I would be sad to see Scotland leave as there is so much that is positive for us both which is being ignored.

  13. Apolgies Steve, a bit garbled in the middle, note to myself – “always proof-read” – but you get my drift!

  14. A difficult one but if Scotland wants to leave then so be it. The UK is built on cross subsidy from wealthy to less wealthy regions. It allows the UK as a whole to benefit from our diverse cultures and strengths. There will be no overall winners in the UK if Scotland departs and most certainly it will not be the land of milk and honey painted by the SNP but potentially a Euro light version of Venezuela. Perhaps financially England will be better off but the vote will be made by the Scottish People and for good or ill and that is democracy (although one point, surely for those who vote no, if yes triumphs but if it is say 48% to 52%, will they not be within their rights to protest there should be another referendum?)

    • The second referendum is not being called because it was a ‘close-call’ last time, or because Nicola Sturgeon didn’t like the last result – as so many people like to falsely claim because it makes a good sound bite. The goalposts have moved. One of the main reasons that was used last time to encourage a vote against independence was that it was that voting no was Scotland’s only chance of remaining in the EU. If that was a valid reason to encourage a ‘No’ vote before then it’s perfectly reasonable that, following that major change, people who voted ‘No’ on that basis get to decide if Brexit is enough of a reason to change their vote – or not. Regardless of your politics, the fact is that the SNP were voted in to lead the Scottish Parliament on a manifesto that said that they would seek another referendum if there was a fundamental change, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against their will. That’s what’s happening now. Regardless of how many voted – of those that did, they overwhelmingly voted to stay. Those who didn’t vote chose not have a say. So, it’s now up to the Scottish people again to decide whether they want to stay part of the UK outside the EU, or take the chance of becoming independent either in or out (since everyone is well aware that membership isn’t guaranteed as things stand now).

      No-one is claiming it’ll be a land of milk and honey, and there is a huge amount of ‘evidence’ available to either side to support their claims about the potential financial outcome for an Independent Scotland. But there are many who would prefer to take their chances, and even pay in a little more to have a country to be proud of.

      • In the way that the Greeks are currently very proud of their country and their politics, and happy to pay more?! Except for Scotland will be in a worse position than even Greece with a budget deficit far higher

      • My point was on all referendums there will be losers and winners. The whole purpose is to establish that a majority want to go ahead with the objective. The margin of loss is irrelevant nationally or locally unless this is baked into the referendum rules (and if this is the case where would the line be drawn?). If a single city or county (as I am sure was the case) voted no would we give credence to a demand for another overall vote. On the basis that this should be the case as Scotland is a substantial and easily delineated part of the UK with 5m people surely Yorkshire has a similar claim for independence with a similar population and economy (From my knowledge of people from Yorkshire I feel this is something they already back). Personally I think Scotland would struggle due to it’s reliance on fiscal transfers from the rest of the UK/the variable nature of the Oil price but I would prefer they didn’t leave.

  15. “A choice of whether to follow the UK to a hard Brexit, or to become an independent country able to secure a real partnership of equals with the rest of the UK and our own relationship with Europe.”

    Hmm.

    The UK is leaving the EU and if Scotland leaves the UK they do not get automatic membership of the EU without going through an application process. Either way, the initial status will be that Scotland won’t be a member of the EU. There would be no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be allowed to join the EU, and if it couldn’t, presumably it would need to negotiate its own trade deal with the EU (and the rest of the world). I wonder what would result in the better deal for Scotland, the UK with Scotland included, or Scotland on its own.

    Or am I missing something?

  16. Alasdair Sampson 13th March 2017 at 6:41 pm

    I am a scot, and proud of it.

    The SNP constantly asserts, usually as part of their latest in an ever lengthening list of grievances, that the “democratic will” of the people of Scotland must prevail.

    But it seems that Ms Sturgeon is to be the only arbiter of what “democratic will” actually means.

    The democratic will of Scotland – I deliberately do not say of Scots – was expressed very clearly in 2014. But here we are again. Despite what 55 per cent told her then.

    Following Brexit Ms Sturgeon continuously asserts that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU by the Tories against her will. She quite deliberately but quite wrongly (a) conflates a UK Remain vote as a Scotland Yes vote and (b) stokes up anti-Tory/UK grievance by deliberately ignoring that Mrs May’s Government is only putting the “democratic will” of the people of the whole of UK into effect.

    I voted Leave in the EU referendum because the EU is fundamentally undemocratic.

    If one is actually to believe Ms Sturgeon then IndyRef2 will not simply be a re-run of 2014. I therefore propose that ballot paper asks:

    Should Scotland remain part of the UK or leave the UK? Voters can select either Remain or Leave.

    And what about the 750,000 or so Scots who live in England, Wales and N Ireland? Are they again to be denied their democratic voice?

    If Ms Sturgeon is so concerned about the rights of EU citizens remaining in the UK post-Brexit, then it is hypocrisy if she denies fellow Scots their rights to have a say in the next referendum.

    Between now and IndyRef2 we can confidently look forward to a continued SNP confection of post-truth propaganda whilst our health, education, and police services, fiscal fairness and economy continue to degenerate – all the while financial capital and talent will flood out of Scotland never to return.

  17. Go for it Nicky
    Let May go down in history as having overseen the breakup of the UK (N.Ireland next?) and probably the longest recession in UK history.
    There will be firms who may wish to locate North to remin in E U and I would welcome an easy trip for duty free Scotch.

  18. Dear CDL,

    As an Englishman you do not appreciate what it is like to live a life without any representation regardless of how your country votes. The fact SNP won 56 and not 53 of 59 nine seats undermines your credibility in understanding what happened in Scotland. The two councils that swayed the last independence referendum where Aberdeenshire and Helensborough. The two areas that benefit from Oil and Trident and most susceptible to the fear mongering spewed by the media. That toss pot Gordon Brown was rolled out to scare the elderly and despite shady practices from the media and politicians alike the vote was still exceptionally close. Devolving powers to allow Scotland to generate independent debt to tackle the lack of investment is laughable. Do not you believe semi- educated Scot’s cannot see through this. There was a lot of votes based on Ex-military pride and bigotry through old rivalries that I do not see having the same impact next time around. The original rhetoric was why create risk by change – how can this be peddled that now England voted has to leave the EU?

    With regards to benefiting from cross regional wealth, perhaps Scotland will benefit more if we stop paying people extra because they live in London and invest these tax savings in fairer enterprises. Population will travel out and release pressures within the M25; the only people who seem to benefit from the current system is the wealthy with a Polish servant or two in their coal cellar.

    Decentralising will not only benefit Scotland but also many deprived and underinvested areas in Northern England, Wales and N. Ireland too.

    As for staying within a UK government what is the point? Do we have separation of retail banking? have we addressed tax inequality and avoidance? Is there a clear mandate to address the upward vacuum of wealth or anything else for that matter?

    Nicola Sturgeon may come across as single minded but please note she was ELECTED and at least is following her own values unlike T. May who seems consumed by the ghost of Maggie Thatcher.

  19. @ Steve B. The UK voted to leave as it was a UK vote. I suspect the reality is the best chance Scotland has of being responsible for itself, its debts, its welfare bill, is if it lets the rest of the UK vote on if it wants to continue to subsidise Scotland or not!

    Nicola Sturgeon does not come across as single minded. She comes across as desperate for any sound bite available, short on ideas and power crazy because that is what she is.

  20. @Steve B. Regardless of their level of education, I am sure most Scots would want to know BEFORE they vote to become indeoendent whether a) the EU would have them b) on what timescale and c) under what terms. The SNP have offered no answers to these nor to how the people in Scotland will feel or be more independent when they supposedly ‘exchange’ Westminster for Brussels.

  21. Unfortunately the English people are served a daily dish of propaganda that is directed at Scots.
    Scotland has the assets that England wants, and indeed this has always been. Scotland is a covertly occupied country and has been for 300 years. We get stolen from daily to feed the Westminster coffers.

    People talk and the English seem to hate the Barnett system to fund Scotland. It is unfair they wail. Well here is a question to think about, there are 4 countries in the UK at present, however, only three are subject to the Barnett formula. Scotland, NI, and Wales.
    So how is England funded, and most important where does a lot of their funding come from.

    No one admits to where it all comes from, well the devolved nations pay their part, Scotland especially. Go dig into this my English friends, use your intelligence to seek the truth.
    Scotland is drained in very many ways. Wake up, do not believe the propaganda of the media,
    you are being lied to, as indeed has Scotland been, and for too long a time.

    Scotland needs out, we need to make things good and start unwinding the 300 years of trickery
    we have been subject to.
    Westminster, not the English ordinary folk, are addicted to the funds from assets stolen and like all addicts, take away their crack and they will be very unhappy.
    The elites know this, and it is becoming more and more visible. Meanwhile, Scots will proceed to become Independent, enough is enough.

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